Used Honda cars for sale in Orinda, CA
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Vehicle Information
- Ext. color
- Silver/Gray
- Int. color
- Black
- Drivetrain
- Front-wheel Drive
- MPG
- 27-36
- Fuel type
- Gasoline
- Transmission
- Automatic
- Engine
- 2.4L I-4 direct injection, DOHC, i-VTEC variable valve control,
- Stock #
- EA131269
- VIN
- 1HGCR2F32EA131269
Features
- Convenience
- Keyless Entry
- Entertainment
- Bluetooth®
- CD Player
- Exterior
- Alloy Wheels
- Safety
- Automatic Emergency Braking
- Backup Camera
- Brake Assist
- Stability Control
Dealer
AutoNation Toyota HaywardReviews
AutoNation Toyota Hayward review
I usually find dealerships to be unpleasant places, but working with Mo from AutoNation Toyota Hayward was a breath of fresh air. He responded quickly to inquiries, patiently showed me the multiple vehicles in their inventory (a rarity given the RAV4's popularity), and found us a fair deal that we could all agree on without excessive upselling or haggling. Super polite and easy to work with, and kindly helped us out with a small follow-up item after the sale.
2014 Honda Accord review
This is hands down the best car I have ever owned!! I've had it 11 years and my 2014 Honda Accord has never needed a repair. I have only ever had to do regular maintenance on it (battery, brake pads, tires, etc). What an incredible value at $22K!!! One feature that has been buggy is the infotainment/Bluetooth but I can live with it.
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Vehicle Information
- Ext. color
- Grey
- Int. color
- Black/Red
- Drivetrain
- Front-wheel Drive
- MPG
- 22-28
- Fuel type
- Gasoline
- Transmission
- 6-Speed Manual
- Engine
- 2L I-4 direct injection, DOHC, VTEC variable valve control, inte
- Stock #
- 264020A
- VIN
- SHHFK8G79KU203932
Features
- Convenience
- Keyless Entry
- Keyless Start
- Navigation System
- Entertainment
- Android Auto®
- Apple CarPlay®
- Bluetooth®
- Premium Sound System
- USB Port
- Exterior
- Alloy Wheels
- Safety
- Automatic Emergency Braking
- Backup Camera
- Brake Assist
- LED Headlights
- Stability Control
Dealer
One Toyota Of OaklandReviews
One Toyota Of Oakland review
Purchase two vehicles from here, one originally became a trade in which made they made the process very smooth. Once traded in, paperwork was processed and payment was accepted, and off I was in a brand new vehicle. Would definitely come back here again especially for the competitive vehicle pricing. Thanks again!
2019 Honda Civic Type R review
Car is surprisingly compliant, I’ve had a few big Audis and vws with low profile tires and this car is really comfortable in comfort mode, took it immediately to a private event at Palmer a few weeks back and the car in stock form did fabulously, definitely lives up to the hype.... and then some. Only downside so far is the lack of options for tires since this car has odd-sized tires, non oem wheels are out of the question, the car has zero torque steer, aftermarket wheels would make all the magic go away. Also, 30mpg is a big plus. I traded my 2011 Range Rover sport for this and honestly the Honda rides better. Leaving the car stock will be the main goal, the car to my eyes is absolutely perfect and livable for daily duties. One thing I’ve noticed lately is that the car has not stopped from appreciating. Future classic is an understatement.
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Vehicle Information
- Ext. color
- White
- Int. color
- BLACK
- Drivetrain
- Rear-wheel Drive
- MPG
- 33-40
- Fuel type
- Gasoline
- Transmission
- Automatic
- Engine
- Gas
- Stock #
- 70177291
- VIN
- 3HGGK5H45KM722837
Features
- Entertainment
- Bluetooth®
- Safety
- Backup Camera
Dealer
CarMax SpokaneReviews
CarMax Spokane review
I have purchased two vehicles from Carmax I did not feel I was being taken advantage of. I received more for my trade in than expected. I have recommended them to friends and family.
2019 Honda Fit review
My car has decent gas mileage— about 40 mpg with a bit less when driving predominantly in town. It fits my petite frame very well but my husband, who is larger, says he is comfortable driving it as well and actually owns his own fit. The car has good visibility and is responsive on the road. It takes curves well, and the acceleration is more than sufficient for entering the freeway and it responds well when a quick maneuver is needed. I love this car more than any other car I have had.
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$18,998
Est. $355/mo CarMax Sacramento/Roseville
Check Availability Vehicle Information
- Ext. color
- Green
- Int. color
- CREAM
- Drivetrain
- Rear-wheel Drive
- Fuel type
- Plug-In Hybrid
- Transmission
- Automatic
- Engine
- Plug-in Hybrid
- Stock #
- 70273349
- VIN
- JHMZC5F31JC010841
Features
- Convenience
- Navigation System
- Entertainment
- Android Auto®
- Apple CarPlay®
- Bluetooth®
- HomeLink
- Satellite Radio
- Exterior
- Alloy Wheels
- Safety
- Backup Camera
- Lane Departure Warning
- Seating
- Leather Seats
- Memory Seat
Dealer
CarMax Sacramento/RosevilleReviews
CarMax Sacramento/Roseville review
i am a new buyer so i went there first because i heard very good things about carmax...they are excellent in the cars they sale...no dealing with the annoying cars sales men...there you go with an idea of a car and get it...well hopefully because they dont have a big inventory so before you go check the website...they littelly have all the cars they have so you dont waste time looking for one...bad thing :( when you have a car you want... dont hisatate...because before u know it its gone... i have lost about 5 cars for histateting...well i was looking at the car value in kelly blue book and when i was ready to buy it (with in one day) it was gone!!! so DONT HISATATE!!!
2018 Honda Clarity Plug-In Hybrid review
During my 65 years of driving (so far) I have owned a marvelous range of cars---this is my favorite and the one I have kept longest and intend to stay with it as long as we both last. The market these days seems to be either cross-overs or too low to the ground for me sedans. Clarity beats those two for me.
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Vehicle Information
- Ext. color
- Nighthawk Black Pearl
- Int. color
- Black w/Gray Accent
- Drivetrain
- Four-wheel Drive
- MPG
- 21-24
- Fuel type
- Gasoline
- Transmission
- Automatic
- Engine
- 2.4L I-4 DOHC, i-VTEC variable valve control, regular gasoline,
- Stock #
- 21010VA
- VIN
- 5J6YH28685L022828
Features
- Convenience
- Keyless Entry
- Entertainment
- CD Player
- Satellite Radio
- Exterior
- Alloy Wheels
- Moonroof
Dealer
Capitol HondaReviews
Capitol Honda review
Was a straightforward process discussing the car and pricing. Getting the paperwork and payment done wasn't a problem either. All in all, worked for me.
2005 Honda Element review
I've had my 2005 element for 3years. It's had a new belt, oil change, and tires, so far. Not bad for 150000 miles. Cleaning is easy, and good visibility on the road. I do love it.
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$25,488
Est. $477/mo Mercedes-Benz of Stevens Creek
Check Availability Vehicle Information
- Ext. color
- Gray
- Int. color
- Black/Red
- Drivetrain
- Front-wheel Drive
- MPG
- 27-37
- Fuel type
- Gasoline
- Transmission
- Manual
- Engine
- 1.5L I-4 direct injection, DOHC, VTEC variable valve control, in
- Stock #
- NH475674
- VIN
- 2HGFE1E50NH475674
Features
- Convenience
- Adaptive Cruise Control
- Keyless Entry
- Keyless Start
- Entertainment
- Android Auto®
- Apple CarPlay®
- Bluetooth®
- Premium Sound System
- Satellite Radio
- USB Port
- Exterior
- Alloy Wheels
- Moonroof
- Safety
- Automatic Emergency Braking
- Backup Camera
- Blind Spot Monitor
- Brake Assist
- LED Headlights
- Lane Departure Warning
- Rear Cross Traffic Alert
- Stability Control
Dealer
Mercedes-Benz of Stevens CreekReviews
Mercedes-Benz of Stevens Creek review
Our purchase of E-350 2025 was quite a surprise to us. Initially we were looking for a new C-300, 2026, when we saw the E-350 2025 in the car lot, we really like this car, so we decided to talk to the dealer to learn more about E-350 versus C-300.
2022 Honda Civic Si review
Perfect daily driver. Smooth, practical, comfortable, great interior, stereo system, mileage and glorious manual transmission. A true drivers car worthy of a serious look to enthusiasts of any age.
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Vehicle Information
- Ext. color
- Modern Steel Metallic
- Int. color
- Gray
- Drivetrain
- Front-wheel Drive
- MPG
- 31-42
- Fuel type
- Gasoline
- Transmission
- Automatic
- Engine
- 1.5L I-4 direct injection, DOHC, variable valve control, interco
- Stock #
- 3T12007
- VIN
- 19XFC1F34GE208022
Features
- Convenience
- Heated Seats
- Keyless Entry
- Keyless Start
- Remote Start
- Entertainment
- Android Auto®
- Apple CarPlay®
- Bluetooth®
- Satellite Radio
- USB Port
- Exterior
- Alloy Wheels
- Moonroof
- Safety
- Automatic Emergency Braking
- Backup Camera
- Blind Spot Monitor
- Brake Assist
- Stability Control
Dealer
Lexus Stevens CreekReviews
2016 Honda Civic review
Jean Paul was great to work with! He sent lots of photos and a video to show us the car before driving to see it! He also had paperwork ready when we got there and waiting on us. It was a very smooth process and the car is wonderful!!!!
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Vehicle Information
- Ext. color
- Mercury Silver Metallic
- Int. color
- Black
- Drivetrain
- All-wheel Drive
- Fuel type
- Electric
- Transmission
- Automatic
- Engine
- Electric
- Stock #
- 21057
- VIN
- 3GPKHZRJ9RS511065
Features
- Convenience
- Adaptive Cruise Control
- Cooled Seats
- Heated Seats
- Keyless Entry
- Keyless Start
- Navigation System
- Power Liftgate
- Remote Start
- Entertainment
- Android Auto®
- Apple CarPlay®
- Bluetooth®
- HomeLink
- Premium Sound System
- USB Port
- WiFi Hotspot
- Exterior
- Alloy Wheels
- Moonroof
- Safety
- Automatic Emergency Braking
- Backup Camera
- Blind Spot Monitor
- Brake Assist
- LED Headlights
- Lane Departure Warning
- Rear Cross Traffic Alert
- Stability Control
- Seating
- Leather Seats
- Memory Seat
Dealer
Capitol HondaReviews
Capitol Honda review
First, I want to state that my wife hates shopping for cars. These words literally came out of her mouth "I would rather give birth naturally again than shop for a car." So, when we were looking to buy a used car, we told every sales guy the same thing. "We are looking to buy a used vehicle. Right now, we are in the looking phase seeing what feels good and what doesn't." Out of the 3 different dealerships we went to, Kevin Nguyen at Capitol Honda was respectful and attentive. Not pushy didn't annoy or xxxx me off or my wife, who HATES shopping for cars, he listened to what we were looking for and I gave him my number and left. We came back another time to check out a vehicle that was a little bigger than we originally wanted then left so that my wife and I can talk about it. Then I found the CR-V Hybrid Trailsport that was in Ash Green. Kevin Nguyen did everything right to get me that vehicle. Open communication, listened, and once we were ready, he made the process as fluid and quickly as possible. While taking possession of our new vehicle, my wife mentioned this has been such an enjoyable experience let alone buying a car. I would highly recommend talking to Kevin Nguyen if you are looking to buy a new or used vehicle. You won’t regret it.
2024 Honda Prologue review
We bought this car on December 30th of 2025, with 41 miles on it. It was being sold as used because Honda had sold/leased it to themselves to collect the $7,500. By the time we bought it, it was down to $26,500, an incredible $30,000 discount. I'm saying this because it also is the basis for how happy I am with the car after $4,300 miles. We have had one trip to the dealer to replace a blower fan and will soon take it in for some big software updates. We have not experienced some of the issues (yet) that other people report, but we have a Honda warranty that takes us almost 8 years and 100,000. From my time on the Prologue forums, there are good dealers and bad dealers, just like any other car. Being that the Prologue is almost an orphan car (discontinued and not to be replaced), I think that it's important to find a good dealer who will stand behind the product. Now for the car: We are very happy overall with the range, the ride and the acceleration. I would say that some of the interior trim could have been upgraded a bit and I see some minor flaws in some of the trim and panel gaps. At this point I am going to say I almost love the car, but it's still early. It has sold us on having an electric car, especially with the price of gas today! I have calculated that with the price of electricity where we live in South Carolina, we are paying about $.04 a mile. If I was buying now, I would take a long look at a low mileage (probably CPO) Prologue and and stop losing $5-600 a month in depreciation.
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Vehicle Information
- Ext. color
- Crystal Black Pearl
- Int. color
- Black
- Drivetrain
- Front-wheel Drive
- MPG
- 48-48
- Fuel type
- Hybrid
- Transmission
- Automatic
- Engine
- 2L I-4 DOHC, i-VTEC variable valve control, regular gasoline, en
- Stock #
- 120539AV
- VIN
- 1HGCV3F1XKA013126
Features
- Convenience
- Adaptive Cruise Control
- Keyless Entry
- Keyless Start
- Remote Start
- Entertainment
- Bluetooth®
- USB Port
- Exterior
- Alloy Wheels
- Safety
- Automatic Emergency Braking
- Backup Camera
- Brake Assist
- LED Headlights
- Lane Departure Warning
- Stability Control
Dealer
Capitol HondaReviews
Capitol Honda review
Ross was a great help and exactly what I was hoping for. Knowledgeable, helpful, and low pressure.
2019 Honda Accord Hybrid review
Anyone who says the mileage is bad clearly does not know how to drive. I use eco mode, drive mostly city some highway and I average about 40-45 mpg sometimes over 50 mpg in Florida. I also use the regen braking pads by the steering wheel for increased battery charging as any owner of a hybrid should. This is a great car, very stylish, lots of storage space, efficient, great easy to use entertainment system and more. My only complaint is that it could be too low for some people, and that there is a rattling sound behind the steering wheel when the gas engine is on and the car is going about 30-40 mph. No idea what it is.
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Vehicle Information
- Ext. color
- Taffeta White
- Int. color
- Black
- Drivetrain
- Front-wheel Drive
- MPG
- 31-41
- Fuel type
- Gasoline
- Transmission
- Variable
- Engine
- 2L I-4 DOHC, i-VTEC VCM variable valve control, regular gasoline
- Stock #
- GE213814
- VIN
- 19XFC2F58GE213814
Features
- Convenience
- Keyless Entry
- Entertainment
- Bluetooth®
- USB Port
- Safety
- Automatic Emergency Braking
- Backup Camera
- Brake Assist
- Stability Control
Dealer
MINI of Stevens CreekReviews
MINI of Stevens Creek review
recently visited my mini service center at Stevens creek for an oil change, and I couldn't be more satisfied with the experience. Robert was not only friendly but also incredibly efficient, completing the service in a hour. Thank you Mini!
2016 Honda Civic review
2016 civic transmission failure! Thought it may be covered by warranty, but no! Loss of this cost too much and disappointment to say the least!!!
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$16,455
Est. $308/mo MINI of Stevens Creek
Check Availability Vehicle Information
- Ext. color
- Mulberry Metallic
- Int. color
- Black
- Drivetrain
- Front-wheel Drive
- MPG
- 28-34
- Fuel type
- Gasoline
- Transmission
- Variable
- Engine
- 1.8L I-4 variable valve control, regular gasoline, engine with 1
- Stock #
- JM703320
- VIN
- 3CZRU5H7XJM703320
Features
- Convenience
- Heated Seats
- Keyless Entry
- Keyless Start
- Navigation System
- Entertainment
- Bluetooth®
- CD Player
- Satellite Radio
- USB Port
- Exterior
- Alloy Wheels
- Moonroof
- Safety
- Automatic Emergency Braking
- Backup Camera
- Blind Spot Monitor
- Brake Assist
- Stability Control
- Seating
- Leather Seats
Dealer
MINI of Stevens CreekReviews
MINI of Stevens Creek review
I came in under my warranty for my annual oil change. The team/system at Stevens creek made sure to notify me in advance to schedule an appointment which made it a breeze. Johnny my rep has such good dry humor that I’ve got to stop for a minute and actually think as he takes the time to make me laugh through all the paperwork. The team always takes great care of my 2025 Mini SE Ive named Chase. They have even on occasion began calling my mini by the name I gave him. Waiting in their lovely lounge full of complimentary snacks and an automated espresso machine makes me forget I’m waiting for my car. This is probably the best dealership service station I’ve ever experienced. I’m grateful to Blake, Johnny and the entire team for such a blessed opportunity to keep my mini Chase healthy and strong!
2018 Honda HR-V review
Some early reviewers did not like the power, but it has been fine for me. I am not racing anyone. I like the “magic seat” capability. That has been useful many times. Driven literally across the country — California to Florida — with little fatigue. 60,000 miles and no maintenance issues.
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Vehicle Information
- Ext. color
- Solar Silver Metallic
- Int. color
- Black
- Drivetrain
- Front-wheel Drive
- MPG
- 50-47
- Fuel type
- Hybrid
- Transmission
- Automatic
- Engine
- 2L I-4 direct injection, DOHC, VTC variable valve control, regul
- Stock #
- 119945A
- VIN
- 2HGFE4F85SH347677
Features
- Convenience
- Adaptive Cruise Control
- Heated Seats
- Keyless Entry
- Keyless Start
- Remote Start
- Entertainment
- Android Auto®
- Apple CarPlay®
- Bluetooth®
- USB Port
- Exterior
- Alloy Wheels
- Moonroof
- Safety
- Automatic Emergency Braking
- Backup Camera
- Blind Spot Monitor
- Brake Assist
- LED Headlights
- Lane Departure Warning
- Rear Cross Traffic Alert
- Stability Control
- Seating
- Leather Seats
Dealer
Capitol HondaReviews
Capitol Honda review
The employees that had anything to do with my vehicle purchase were very professional. The finance department did a great job . Got me to buy my first ever extended warranty.😊
2025 Honda Civic Hybrid review
Great experience from beginning to the end. My salesperson Yass listened carefully to what I was looking for, showed me several options within my price range, and answered all my questions about the features and financing. They also kept me updated throughout the process and made sure everything was ready for a smooth pickup. The customer service was excellent from beginning to end!
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$33,993
New 2026 Honda CR-V LX AWD
$34,368
New 2026 Honda Civic Hybrid Sport
$29,768
New 2026 Honda Civic Sport
$32,165
New 2026 Honda Civic Hybrid Sport
$38,461
New 2026 Honda CR-V EX-L 2WD
$36,478
New 2026 Honda CR-V EX AWD
$29,956
New 2026 Honda Civic Sport
$46,710
New 2027 Honda Odyssey Sport-L
$50,107
New 2026 Honda Pilot EX-L
$38,956
New 2026 Honda Civic Hybrid Sport Touring
$44,812
New 2027 Honda Odyssey EX-L
$30,056
New 2026 Honda Civic LX -





Vehicle Information
- Ext. color
- Modern Steel Metallic
- Int. color
- Black
- Drivetrain
- Front-wheel Drive
- MPG
- 33-40
- Fuel type
- Gasoline
- Transmission
- Automatic
- Engine
- 1.5L I-4 direct injection, DOHC, variable valve control, regular
- Stock #
- HS018662
- VIN
- JHMGK5H57HS018662
Features
- Convenience
- Keyless Entry
- Entertainment
- Bluetooth®
- CD Player
- USB Port
- Safety
- Automatic Emergency Braking
- Backup Camera
- Brake Assist
- Stability Control
Dealer
Mercedes-Benz of Stevens CreekReviews
Mercedes-Benz of Stevens Creek review
There are times in life where you need the person on the phone to understand the assignment. I needed a car immediately and had a packed schedule. I called Stevens Creek Mercedes and was lucky enough to have Harris pick up on the other day end. He asked all the right questions, and understood my time constraint and budget. He got all pre-approvals done and asked me for a time most convenient for me to show up the NEXT DAY! When I got there, everything was pretty much done. I walked out with a new lease. From me making the phone call and driving away in a new mercedes was less than 24 hours! Huge shout out to Harris and BIG thank you for making it simple and sweet!
2017 Honda Fit review
Bought it new in 2017 because I wanted a small car that didn’t crumple in an accident. Well it didn’t. Had a major accident and it was totaled. Hit by a much larger truck combined front and driver side collision, went airborne over 2/3 lanes, knocked down utility poles and stopped. I crawled out the drivers door with only bumps and bruises. I am 76ers old. Nothing in the car touched me, except the airbags. The medics didn’t believe me. (I am an RN). I am so grateful that it did it’s job by saving my life. So, I Bought another FIT. The driver’s seat is uncomfortable on a long trip and it takes a few seconds to get in gear. That’s all I have for negatives.
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$28,988
Est. $542/mo AutoNation Acura Stevens Creek
Check Availability Vehicle Information
- Ext. color
- Platinum White Pearl
- Int. color
- Black/Red
- Drivetrain
- Front-wheel Drive
- MPG
- 27-37
- Fuel type
- Gasoline
- Transmission
- Manual
- Engine
- 1.5L I-4 direct injection, DOHC, VTEC variable valve control, in
- Stock #
- NH475034
- VIN
- 2HGFE1E58NH475034
Features
- Convenience
- Adaptive Cruise Control
- Keyless Entry
- Keyless Start
- Entertainment
- Android Auto®
- Apple CarPlay®
- Bluetooth®
- Premium Sound System
- Satellite Radio
- USB Port
- Exterior
- Alloy Wheels
- Moonroof
- Safety
- Automatic Emergency Braking
- Backup Camera
- Blind Spot Monitor
- Brake Assist
- LED Headlights
- Lane Departure Warning
- Rear Cross Traffic Alert
- Stability Control
Dealer
AutoNation Acura Stevens CreekReviews
AutoNation Acura Stevens Creek review
Yusef at Audi at Steven?s creek in San Jose was the very best!! Honest, professional, knowledgeable and so kind! Best ever! Beautiful new facility etc. Could not be happier with Yusef.
2022 Honda Civic Si review
I sold Honda for years and I always loved driving the Civic SI. I prefer a manual tranny and this car offers that plus a lot more. It’s spacious and the front “racing” style seats hug you! The display is quite large in comparison to other makes in its class. This car performs seamlessly as it always has.
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Vehicle Information
- Ext. color
- Platinum White Pearl
- Int. color
- Black/Red
- Drivetrain
- Front-wheel Drive
- MPG
- 27-37
- Fuel type
- Gasoline
- Transmission
- Manual
- Engine
- 1.5L I-4 direct injection, DOHC, VTEC variable valve control, in
- Stock #
- 120611A
- VIN
- 2HGFE1E5XSH474379
Features
- Convenience
- Adaptive Cruise Control
- Heated Seats
- Keyless Entry
- Keyless Start
- Navigation System
- Entertainment
- Android Auto®
- Apple CarPlay®
- Bluetooth®
- Premium Sound System
- USB Port
- WiFi Hotspot
- Exterior
- Alloy Wheels
- Moonroof
- Safety
- Automatic Emergency Braking
- Backup Camera
- Blind Spot Monitor
- Brake Assist
- LED Headlights
- Lane Departure Warning
- Rear Cross Traffic Alert
- Stability Control
Dealer
Capitol HondaReviews
Capitol Honda review
We had such a wonderful experience buying a Honda Civic. From test driving several models, to learning about the car’s features, to doing finance, and driving away with a new car, every step was easy, well-explained, and timely. Our sales associate, Vahab, was so kind and helpful, as was the management. We really appreciated the ease of the whole process, and we are definitely happy with our decision to go to Capitol Honda for this important purchase!
2025 Honda Civic Si review
i've first been dreaming to have a car like this since i was 16 years old, and with a lot of time being able to save up for this car i was finally able to put a good down payment with a decent interest rate. after having it for a few weeks im still so happy i got to buy this car.
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Vehicle Information
- Ext. color
- White Diamond Pearl
- Int. color
- Beige
- Drivetrain
- All-wheel Drive
- MPG
- 22-30
- Fuel type
- Gasoline
- Transmission
- Automatic
- Engine
- 2.4L I-4 DOHC, i-VTEC variable valve control, regular gasoline,
- Stock #
- CL069386
- VIN
- 5J6RM4H56CL069386
Features
- Convenience
- Keyless Entry
- Entertainment
- Bluetooth®
- CD Player
- Exterior
- Alloy Wheels
- Moonroof
- Safety
- Automatic Emergency Braking
- Backup Camera
- Brake Assist
- Stability Control
Dealer
Mercedes-Benz of Stevens CreekReviews
Mercedes-Benz of Stevens Creek review
Excellent service, they understand your needs and support you so you can have a pleasant experience. I greatly appreciate their attention and understanding. I will definitely return and recommend them to all my friends.
2012 Honda CR-V review
It's longer than most SUVs. I've been able to haul both drywall and plywood still closing the rear door. It's been great to travel with, the back seats fold all the way down.
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